Comments on: The Story Behind the Atlantic Salmon http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/ A personal weblog of developmental cognitive neuroscience. Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:46:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Law and Biosciences Blog | What a dead salmon reminds us about fMRI analysis http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-305 Law and Biosciences Blog | What a dead salmon reminds us about fMRI analysis Mon, 08 Feb 2010 06:14:39 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-305 [...] author Craig Bennett explains further on his blog: In early 2008 I was working with my co-adviser George Wolford on a presentation he was giving [...] [...] author Craig Bennett explains further on his blog: In early 2008 I was working with my co-adviser George Wolford on a presentation he was giving [...]

]]> By: Lingoland » Arkiv » Post-mortem mentalization processes in the Atlantic Salmon http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-294 Lingoland » Arkiv » Post-mortem mentalization processes in the Atlantic Salmon Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:50:13 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-294 [...] be careful when drawing conclusions from fMRI scans. The salmon scans (poster) and the story behind it. Skrevet af Anders K. Madsen | Ingen kommentarer Emneord: fMRI, kognition, MRI, [...] [...] be careful when drawing conclusions from fMRI scans. The salmon scans (poster) and the story behind it. Skrevet af Anders K. Madsen | Ingen kommentarer Emneord: fMRI, kognition, MRI, [...]

]]> By: fMRI of dead salmon: how not to do science « Science Notes http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-222 fMRI of dead salmon: how not to do science « Science Notes Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:43:59 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-222 [...] read “The story behind the Atlantic salmon.” Posted in humor, science. Tags: scientific method. Leave a Comment [...] [...] read “The story behind the Atlantic salmon.” Posted in humor, science. Tags: scientific method. Leave a Comment [...]

]]> By: P. Jennings http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-204 P. Jennings Fri, 09 Oct 2009 05:59:57 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-204 Salmon navigate, right? How do they do that? Sense of smell when that works - close to land. Or by magnetism, when out at sea. There are magnetic particles in the lateral line: >Magnetization measurements with a superconducting quantum >inference device magnetometer of various tissues of the >Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar L.) have shown the presence >of magnetic material associated with the lateral line. The >data suggest that the material is magnetite and of a size >suitable for magnetoreception. Magnetic particles were >isolated from the lateral line and nerve ... -- Magnetic Particles in the Lateral Line of the Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar L.) A. Moore, et al. Have to wonder if there are also such particles in their brains? Enough to cause a change (even in a dead salmon) if exposed to fMRI? <em>There may very well be some magnetic particles in their brain. Also, I cannot discount that there may be some interaction of these particles with the scanner's magnetic field. However, I do not believe that this effect would explain the repetitive rise and fall in the signal needed for the voxels to be considered significant. It is likely that voxels with such particles would have a relatively stable signal or a signal that slowly drifts over time - trends that are removed during image processing of the data. ~ Craig [Prefrontal]</em> Salmon navigate, right? How do they do that? Sense of smell when that works – close to land. Or by magnetism, when out at sea.

There are magnetic particles in the lateral line:

>Magnetization measurements with a superconducting quantum >inference device magnetometer of various tissues of the >Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar L.) have shown the presence >of magnetic material associated with the lateral line. The >data suggest that the material is magnetite and of a size >suitable for magnetoreception. Magnetic particles were >isolated from the lateral line and nerve …
– Magnetic Particles in the Lateral Line of the Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar L.) A. Moore, et al.

Have to wonder if there are also such particles in their brains? Enough to cause a change (even in a dead salmon) if exposed to fMRI?

There may very well be some magnetic particles in their brain. Also, I cannot discount that there may be some interaction of these particles with the scanner’s magnetic field. However, I do not believe that this effect would explain the repetitive rise and fall in the signal needed for the voxels to be considered significant. It is likely that voxels with such particles would have a relatively stable signal or a signal that slowly drifts over time – trends that are removed during image processing of the data. ~ Craig [Prefrontal]

]]> By: marcoilbiondo http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-197 marcoilbiondo Fri, 02 Oct 2009 09:40:09 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-197 interesting, but could it be just a new exemple of cryptobiose (like tardigrada), so the salmon should be just a little alive (only the brain awaked, like a computer switch off but ready to start) !! Freezing is knowing to conserve life, and salmons are not killed before freeze, are they ? To live with him in the the future, just reed before the Umberto Eco novel : "how to travel with a salmon", a funny story. Sorry for my bad english interesting, but could it be just a new exemple of cryptobiose (like tardigrada), so the salmon should be just a little alive (only the brain awaked, like a computer switch off but ready to start) !!

Freezing is knowing to conserve life, and salmons are not killed before freeze, are they ?

To live with him in the the future, just reed before the Umberto Eco novel : “how to travel with a salmon”, a funny story.

Sorry for my bad english

]]> By: jim http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-188 jim Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:42:43 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-188 I saw something similar to this in the mid-1990's. I think that it also showed that imaging found brain activity or spinal activity in a dead fish. I'm not 100% sure, nor am I sure where it was (I'm a molecular biologist, not an imager), but it was probably somewhere on the web - a site that someone alerted me to. I saw something similar to this in the mid-1990’s. I think that it also showed that imaging found brain activity or spinal activity in a dead fish. I’m not 100% sure, nor am I sure where it was (I’m a molecular biologist, not an imager), but it was probably somewhere on the web – a site that someone alerted me to.

]]> By: Personality Pedagogy Newsletter Volume 4, Number 1, Sept, 2009 « Personality Pedagogy Blog http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-187 Personality Pedagogy Newsletter Volume 4, Number 1, Sept, 2009 « Personality Pedagogy Blog Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:30:17 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-187 [...] parts of the brain of a dead salmon responds to human emotion. See also the Story Behind the Salmon here and the pdf of the study [...] [...] parts of the brain of a dead salmon responds to human emotion. See also the Story Behind the Salmon here and the pdf of the study [...]

]]> By: Justin Marley http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-186 Justin Marley Sun, 27 Sep 2009 08:49:30 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-186 Hi (?) Craig, Didn't realise it was your poster until just now. Nice one. Very cheeky. Just reviewed it in a bit more detail over here. http://theamazingworldofpsychiatry.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/news-round-up-september-2009-4th-edition/ Is there any chance the highlighted areas could be the substantia nigra - as it's relevant to a recent PNAS paper http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=2732704&blobtype=pdf Regards Justin <em>Justin -I enjoyed your article, and made a more lengthy comment there. Briefly, I will just say that I do not know if the dorsal spinal region is close to the salmon substantia nigra. Unfortunately my years of human neuroanatomy do not transfer that well to the brain of a fish! ~ Craig [Prefrontal]</em> Hi (?) Craig,
Didn’t realise it was your poster until just now. Nice one. Very cheeky. Just reviewed it in a bit more detail over here.

http://theamazingworldofpsychiatry.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/news-round-up-september-2009-4th-edition/

Is there any chance the highlighted areas could be the substantia nigra – as it’s relevant to a recent PNAS paper

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=2732704&blobtype=pdf

Regards
Justin

Justin -I enjoyed your article, and made a more lengthy comment there. Briefly, I will just say that I do not know if the dorsal spinal region is close to the salmon substantia nigra. Unfortunately my years of human neuroanatomy do not transfer that well to the brain of a fish! ~ Craig [Prefrontal]

]]> By: Nick http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-182 Nick Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:39:50 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-182 Reminds me of the push-back over the paper by Vul et al. that you can find at (http://www.edvul.com/voodoocorr.php) -- there will always be resistance to these kinds of corrections, and I think they always come in the peer review process because it's fairly anonymous, and someone who uses questionable methods can defend them without being forced to make an argument in their defense. Which would be hard, because so much of behavioral neuroscience is a recapitulation of just-so-stories from sociobiology, correlated by questionable methods and data. Long story short: way to go. You're not the 'fish guys', you're the 'good guys'. Nick publicoption.blogspot.com Reminds me of the push-back over the paper by Vul et al. that you can find at (http://www.edvul.com/voodoocorr.php) — there will always be resistance to these kinds of corrections, and I think they always come in the peer review process because it’s fairly anonymous, and someone who uses questionable methods can defend them without being forced to make an argument in their defense.

Which would be hard, because so much of behavioral neuroscience is a recapitulation of just-so-stories from sociobiology, correlated by questionable methods and data.

Long story short: way to go. You’re not the ‘fish guys’, you’re the ‘good guys’.

Nick
publicoption.blogspot.com

]]> By: Astoundingly Sympathetic Dead Fish | a Conservation Blog http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-181 Astoundingly Sympathetic Dead Fish | a Conservation Blog Fri, 25 Sep 2009 20:54:35 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-181 [...] Bennett and colleagues at UCSB have found something truly extraordinary: a dead fish that can read our minds. Bennett conducted an fMRI on the length of a dead salmon, [...] [...] Bennett and colleagues at UCSB have found something truly extraordinary: a dead fish that can read our minds. Bennett conducted an fMRI on the length of a dead salmon, [...]

]]> By: K http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-177 K Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:23:09 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-177 While I do agree on the importance of correcting for multiple comparisons - in a random effects study, wouldn't a big amount of the false positives even out across the subjects, thus somewhat lessening the impact that any single-salmon study could have on the field? Would be great to see a group result - otherwise the big neuroimaging journals would be justified to not publish that paper, and refer you to Neurocase instead... :) While I do agree on the importance of correcting for multiple comparisons – in a random effects study, wouldn’t a big amount of the false positives even out across the subjects, thus somewhat lessening the impact that any single-salmon study could have on the field? Would be great to see a group result – otherwise the big neuroimaging journals would be justified to not publish that paper, and refer you to Neurocase instead… :)

]]> By: Careful What You Fish For… « Scepticon http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-173 Careful What You Fish For… « Scepticon Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:50:10 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-173 [...] a must in order to draw valid conclusions. Read Bennett’s description of event’s at his Blog and see the poster based on the data Here. « [...] [...] a must in order to draw valid conclusions. Read Bennett’s description of event’s at his Blog and see the poster based on the data Here. « [...]

]]> By: Ohio Cyclist http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-172 Ohio Cyclist Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:41:43 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-172 And I suppose it was silly when Luigi Galvani applied an electric current to a dead frogs leg, and it twitched. Do we think that everything totally ceases when an organism is no longer alive? Galvani proved otherwise. Similarly though the fish is dead, this is another proof that all activity has NOT ceased. Considering that fish are cold-blooded, there may be an even higher chance of functioning even longer after death, than might be expected of warm-blooded organisms. <em>Ohio - Whether or not this is the case, the version of fMRI that we used for the salmon scans would not be sensitive to residual electrical currents in the brain. It is only sensitive to differences in magnetic susceptibility due to changes in the ratio of oxygenated and deoxygenated blood, hence the term blood oxygen level dependent (BOLD) imaging. There was no blood flow in our salmon, meaning that the signal could not rise and fall in synchrony with our experimental design. ~Craig [Prefrontal]</em> And I suppose it was silly when Luigi Galvani applied an
electric current to a dead frogs leg, and it twitched.
Do we think that everything totally ceases when an
organism is no longer alive? Galvani proved otherwise.

Similarly though the fish is dead, this is another proof
that all activity has NOT ceased. Considering that fish
are cold-blooded, there may be an even higher chance of
functioning even longer after death, than might be expected
of warm-blooded organisms.

Ohio – Whether or not this is the case, the version of fMRI that we used for the salmon scans would not be sensitive to residual electrical currents in the brain. It is only sensitive to differences in magnetic susceptibility due to changes in the ratio of oxygenated and deoxygenated blood, hence the term blood oxygen level dependent (BOLD) imaging. There was no blood flow in our salmon, meaning that the signal could not rise and fall in synchrony with our experimental design. ~Craig [Prefrontal]

]]> By: SCE http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-171 SCE Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:01:32 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-171 Clearly the next round of tests should be on members of congress! Clearly the next round of tests should be on members of congress!

]]> By: Josh Chang http://prefrontal.org/blog/2009/09/the-story-behind-the-atlantic-salmon/comment-page-1/#comment-168 Josh Chang Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:13:11 +0000 http://prefrontal.org/blog/?p=617#comment-168 Personally, I see this less as a weakness in multiple comparison p-value adjustment strategies, and more as a general weakness in Fisher's formulation of frequentist statistics. Personally, I see this less as a weakness in multiple comparison p-value adjustment strategies, and more as a general weakness in Fisher’s formulation of frequentist statistics.

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